Ukraine fights against the enemy

I think it's so ironic that Germany decided to do away with nuclear power plants after Fukashima but are so loath to do anything to offend Putin and endanger Nordstream I and II pipelines.

If they learned anything from WW2 they should have learned that checking aggression earlier rather than later is always easier and less expensive.

frinik wrote:Ok i thought you meant that he was taking his yacht away because war was imminent.

I don't think the two things are mutually exclusive. He is afraid of sanctions and seizures now and in the future. I think he took this action to preserve his toy boat because he intends some imminent action. Otherwise he would have left it in Germany to complete repairs. Or maybe he is using it as a pressure tactic to show he is serious about his demands.

He's kind of painted himself into a corner. He's declared this as a vital security interest of Russia. Backing down will make him look weak domestically and internationally. Something he can't afford.

It's interesting that some retired Russian generals are publicly stating that invading Ukraine is a bad idea and will make permanent enemies of the Ukrainians. These declarations have been allowed to remain posted and not censored by Putin's government.

Zelenskyy's actions are curious. He keeps cautioning about not panicking and saying that invasion is not imminent, when all signs show that it is. Putin's main goal is to overthrow the Ukrainian government and install a puppet one. I wonder if Zelenskyy and the Russians are working on some deal behind the scenes about that matter.

May be the Ukrainians know something we don't ?Personally I don't believe the Russians will invade. That's what I have been consistently saying.

Putin loves playing brinkmanship and I think his moves are carefully calculated. He has created a situation where he has everybody convinced that war is imminent. He wants Biden and the UK and the French to make concessions and Finlandize the Ukraine; i.e. no NATO, No EU membership. Then he can declare victory , withdraw his troops tell the Russian people. See? How good I am and how successful? Then get himself elected for the next decade or two and keep Ukraine out of the West into Russia's zone of influence. He is like Hitler in 1935-1939. Although I believe he is smarter than Hitler and can stop the game before it turns into one he cannot win. Hitler could not stop and that was his undoing.

Putin is taking a page from Bismarck. Read a Bismarck biography and how he masterfully managed to unify Germany around Prussia in 6 years against all hostile neighbouring powers. Putin wants the same but to recreate a sort of mini Russian Tsarist empire with Belarus and the Ukraine as vassals and stop NATO and the EU from expanding eastwards as Bismarck managed to neutralize France and Austria, Prussia's great opponents of German unification ( Austria wanted it but as part of a greater Hapsburg empire with Bavaria and the Rhineland in and Prussia out).

What happens if the west does not back down? I don't believe they will. They won't agree to his demands.

Putin is then left with backing down completely or hybrid warfare like in Crimea (I don't think that will be effective in a united Ukraine), or a full invasion.

As for the West not backing down I wouldn't bet my last paycheque on that! How many times have Western powers caved in in the past to avoid conflict? Putin knows that the moment body bags start arriving home Western politicians start sweating about the electoral consequences.

Ask yourself the question; if the US had had to endure the kind of losses the USSR endured during WW2 on average 532 000 civilian and military deaths every single day of the war on the East Front how long would it have taken for Uncle Sam to make peace with Nazi Germany?

Ukrainian soldiers moves to the line of the defence.



Russians S-400 launchers moves to the border with Ukraine (Belgorod region, Byelarus)

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Europeans are overwhelming in support of the Ukraine and in favour of backing the Ukraine against Russia:

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frinik wrote:As for the West not backing down I wouldn't bet my last paycheque on that! How many times have Western powers caved in in the past to avoid conflict? Putin knows that the moment body bags start arriving home Western politicians start sweating about the electoral consequences.

Ask yourself the question; if the US had had to endure the kind of losses the USSR endured during WW2 on average 532 000 civilian and military deaths every single day of the war on the East Front how long would it have taken for Uncle Sam to make peace with Nazi Germany?

The body bags will be filled with Russians and Ukrainians, not Europeans and Americans. Biden has already said that US troops won't go to Ukraine. By not caving in, I mean they won't give in to Putin's demands that Ukraine will not be allowed to join NATO or the EU.

False equivalence. If the Nazis were at our throats and refused any settlement except extinction, Uncle Sam would have done the same as the Soviets did.

BTW I think you've made an overestimate of the daily casualties. The war on the Eastern Front lasted 1416 days. Multiplying that by 532,000 equals 753,312,000. Most estimates are around 27,000,000 civilian and military deaths . I think it's more like 19,000 per day. Still a horrific number.

My bad that was every single month not every day. Thanks for the correction. The latest figures used by Russian historians are 25 million dead and missing.

False equivalence? The US has shown in Vietnam that high casualties are a political liability for whoever is in power. I stand by my comment unless their territory is invaded the US will shy away form taking high casualties. Which is why US tactics are to deploy overwhelming force, hit the enemy hard as quickly as possible to subdue them before they can start a war of attrition.

As for the Ukraine if Biden doe snot send in troops should Russia invade then he will be sending the Chinese a message that they can invade Taiwan without fear of US intervention. That would be for the US an unbelievable and irretrievable loss of prestige and credibility. Anyway it won't come to that.

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Pro-Russian Forces Shell Ukrainian Kindergarten Full of Kids

frinik wrote:My bad that was every single month not every day. Thanks for the correction. The latest figures used by Russian historians are 25 million dead and missing.

False equivalence? The US has shown  in Vietnam that high casualties are a political liability for whoever is in power. I stand by my comment unless their territory is invaded the US will shy away form taking high casualties. Which is why US tactics are to deploy overwhelming force, hit the enemy hard as quickly as possible to subdue them before they can start a war of attrition.

As for the Ukraine if Biden doe snot send in troops should Russia invade then he will be sending the Chinese  a message that they can invade Taiwan without fear of US intervention. That would be for the US an unbelievable and irretrievable loss of prestige and credibility. Anyway it won't come to that.

It's false equivalence because Viet Nam was not the homeland like Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad were for the Soviets, so you can't compare the two situations.

To be honest, the US is much more committed to the defense of Taiwan than Ukraine but I'm not convinced that it is as committed as China is to get it back.

Tanker, you missed the point I was trying to make which is Russians are accustomed to taking huge losses in soldiers lives whereas they know Americans are casualties sensitive.

Taiwan controls 45% of all microprocessors world production. That alone would justify US military intervention.

We're talking right past each other.

No worries it happens. Nothing wrong with that!

Hope everything is OK for our Ukrainian brothers. I'm really worried for the people that have made Steel Fury the game it is. People like Lockie, Will73, Mechanic, Kozak and all our other members (you too Plug Nickel). I pray you and your families get through these times safely and Ukraine stays free.

Witt88 thank u  for support and good words! Ukraine is Independent and Free country! Thank u very much for the help!
Russian hordes are always wants to conquer Ukraine and assume the right on the history of Ukraine. So, there is nothing new in our relations. It's the same situation when russian hordes started the regular invasion in January 1918. First it happened in 1240 when russian ancestry under the leader Baty-khan seized Slavic Kyiv.
In 20th century the russian empire USSR was broke down, but the habit - capturing everything which don't belong to them, is still presented in their activity.
There is a question, where the russian' border is ending?
The answer is - russian' border is ending where it will get a strong strike at their teeth.
GLORY TO UKRAINE!

PS
At this moment the fake government of the captured territory on the east Ukraine/Donbas is full of hysteria and took all men in the Army as a first wave of the future offensive - meat grinder. The population was forced to be evacuated to the russian Rostov (~1200km). Now they are coming back by foot to Donbas. Many of them received 10000 rubles(~126$) as compensation.

witt88 wrote:Hope everything is OK for our Ukrainian brothers. I'm really worried for the people that have made Steel Fury the game it is. People like Lockie, Will73, Mechanic, Kozak and all our other members (you too Plug Nickel). I pray you and your families get through these times safely and Ukraine stays free.

Just my feelings. I couldn't say it better.

We are with our Ukrainian brothers!

Txema

Дякую за підтримку!

frinik wrote:I don't believe the Russians will invade. That's what I have been consistently saying.

He is like Hitler in 1935-1939. Although I believe he is smarter than Hitler and can stop the game before it turns into one he cannot win. Hitler could not stop and that was his undoing.

Guess he wasn't as smart as you gave him credit for.

The full-scaled war with russians aggressors started.

GLORY TO UKRAINE!


1) Attacks our military airfields: Chuguev, Kramatorsk, Ozernoye, Kulbakino, Vasilkov.
2) Attacks our storage bases and arsenals.
3) Marine landing in Odessa - no, this is not confirmed. Tank columns at the entrance to Kharkiv/Sumy/Chernihiv/Kyiv - no, this is not confirmed. That doesn't mean it can't be - but it's not confirmed as for now.
4) Tightly along the front line ... although now the front is everywhere ... MLRS. According to familiar brigades - there are no losses, just thick shelling, but stupid.
I understand the state you're in right now, but.
Our air defense works (as they can and with what they can). Many of the "explosions" you hear are launches.
Our military is working. And at the front too.
We will fight.

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Ukraine and Ukrainians, God bless you. From the bottom of my heart I wish you to stand and win! A curse on the head of Moscow cannibals. Glory to Ukraine!

Головнокомандувач ЗС України / CinC AF of Ukraine

Сьогодні, 24 лютого, о 5.00 збройні сили Російської Федерації розпочали інтенсивні обстріли наших підрозділів на сході, нанесли ракетно-бомбові удари по аеродромах в Борисполі, Озерному, Кульбакіному, Чугуєві, Краматорську, Чорнобаївці, а також по військових об’єктах Збройних Сил України. Водночас, агресор розпочав артилерійські обстріли території та населених пунктів України вздовж державного кордону та на межі з ТОТ АР Крим.
Сили оборони держави, користуючись правом на самооборону відповідно до ст.51 Статуту ООН, надають гідну відсіч спробам противника прорвати кордон. Ситуація контрольована. Російські війська несуть втрати.
В районі проведення ООС збито 5 літаків ВКС РФ та 2 вертольоти, підбито 2 танки, знищено кілька вантажівок ЗС РФ.
Верховний Головнокомандувач Збройних Сил України віддав наказ наносити максимальних втрат загарбникам.
Втрат серед захисників України на даний час немає.
Ми на своїй землі і не здамо її!
Разом до Перемоги!
Today, on 24 of February, at 5.00 AM the armed forces of the Russian Federation launched an intensive shelling of our units on east, delivered missile/bomb strikes on airfields in Boryspil, Ozerne, Kulbakino, Chuhuiv, Kramatorsk, Chornobaivka, as well as on military infrastructure of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. At the same time the aggressor started artillery shelling of the areas and settlements along the state border and administrative boundary with temporarily occupied territory of Crimea.
National Defence Forces, using the right for self-defence according to the article 51 of the United Nations Charter are countering with dignity the enemy`s attempts to break through the state border. Situation is controlled. The Russian troops are suffering losses.
In the Joined Forces Operation area 5 aircraft and 2 helicopters of Russian Aerospace Forces were shot, two tanks were damaged, several trucks of the armed forces of the Russian Federation were destroyed.
The Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine gave orders to inflict the maximum losses to the aggressor.
There are no losses among the defenders of Ukraine.
We are on our land and we will not give it up!
Together to the Victory!

Please stay out of harms way Lockie and all our other Ukrainian friends. I only wish we could help in some way. I feel ashamed that Western/Nato counties cannot intervene militarily. All the talk and all the sanctions have meant absolutely nothing. We are thinking of you and your families. God bless Ukraine.